Making Errors of Action — Comp + Coffee: Ep. 27

In some corporate cultures, “mistake” is nothing short of a dirty word. Mistakes are equated to failure — and in some cases, they can have devastating effects on your career.

But what would our productivity, our creativity, our culture look like if we were encouraged to fail? What would happen if we were free to stumble, as long as we made actionable errors?

On this episode of Comp + Coffee, we’re joined by Mike Zani, CEO of The Predictive Index.

We’ll discuss compensation from a CEO’s perspective, what an enlightened talent leader is, and why it’s better to make errors of action than errors of inaction.

As always, if you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe. And don’t forget to give us a 5-star rating!


For a full transcription of the episode, see below.



Shawn: Hey, Bill. We’re live.

Bill: Hello, Shawn.

Shawn: We always start out this way.

Bill: I know.

Shawn: Happy Thursday to you.

Bill: A very happy Thursday, Shawn.

Shawn: Kaite’s here as well.

Kaite: I am here.

Shawn: Special guest today. Mike Zani, CEO of PI. Welcome, Mike.

Mike: It’s great to be here.

Shawn: We’re expanding out the Comp and Coffee family.

Mike: I love having a coffee.

Kaite: I love being caffeinated.

Bill: Do you want to tell people what PI is, Shawn?

Shawn: Well, I’ll leave that to Mike, perhaps. Mike, do you want to tell people what PI is?

Mike: Sure. Most people would have heard of the Predictive Index or PI. You know, most CEOs have a strategy. Most of them also have a financial plan to support that strategy. But tragically, most of them don’t have a talent plan to back up their strategy. And the Predictive Index helps CEOs build a talent strategy, execute on the talent strategy, you know, through software, through training, and through our certified partner network.

Shawn: Awesome. Well, thrilled to have you. We have an interesting topic to cover today, which is making errors of action. I also want to let you know a little humble brag here. You’re sitting on an award-winning podcast now. We won an award.

Kaite: Woo-hoo.

Shawn: The Communicator Award.

Mike: That’s what I heard.

Kaite: I’m honored.

Shawn: Comp and Coffee. Well, you should be paying us.

Mike: I’m not.

Shawn: Something got lost then. But no, we…thanks to the audience here, that helped us out with that. We won an award, a Communicator Award, for this podcast, which from our humble beginnings of uniting the Comp community seems to be doing pretty well, thanks to the feedback that everybody’s given. And we’re always open to more of that. But I wanted to start today with errors of action.

And if you can indulge me here for a minute, I’m going to share a personal story. Mike and I have a shared history. And he’s very nervous right now apparently about me telling the shared history. Mike and I worked at a company previously in the HR space. Mike was brought in as CEO of that company, ShapeUp. And I always the first non-founder marketing hire that he brought in. And a lot going on at the time. There was… We just had raised $5 million.

Mike: Yeah, there was a huge amount of activity.

Shawn: We were in a fit with the product at that point and trying to level that up. I tried to figure out how to extend one component of the product into more. Tons of partners were involved, big partners, huge, some of the biggest companies in America.

Mike: Indeed, yeah.

Shawn: That we were trying to balance.

Mike: We’re trying not to get stepped on by elephants.

Shawn: Multiple. A herd. Trying to figure out how to better service accounts and the employees of those accounts. UI, UX. There was a lot going on and that’s above and beyond marketing. So it was like, “Okay, we need to operationalize sales. We need to restructure sales. We need to generate demand. We need to change the brand and get that awareness out there. Enable the partners with both sales and services.” I could probably keep going on and on. There was a lot going on.

And at the time, I was a one-man department. I was a one-person department. And so the pressure was on. Funding came in. Wanted to see results. Lots of options to choose from of where to place your time. No shortage of that. And I guess my long point that I’m arriving at here is that it was easy at the time to get overwhelmed very quickly. Let me add one other layer to this, which is you took a shot on me. You were new to the CEO role there. You brought me in. I was all of 28, I think, at the time.

Mike: I wasn’t allowed to ask your age. But that was about right.

Shawn: I was early in my career. And you very nicely gave me a shot. And I think you could probably see this too and probably felt it from your standpoint, that there were a lot of fires to put out. And where do you choose to spend your time? And how do you know where? I mean, I’m sure as a CEO, you were feeling that same pressure at the time. And so what I thought was interesting is doing our weekly one-on-ones, looking back on it now.

And if you want to hear a great episode on one-on-ones, a shameless plug, go back a few episodes. We had somebody from 15Five. It was great. But during our one-on-ones, you tried to nudge me, tried to guide me and build my confidence a little bit, and, you know, instill that confidence that I was making the decisions that needed to be made or if not, you know, at least I was making decisions. We learned from it. And one of the things that you said to me at the time, and this is after a couple of iterations of that, that I still use probably almost daily to this day…

Kaite: You do use daily.

Shawn: I use a lot, a lot, was makers of action. And I found it interesting at the time with all that context going on, which was like, “Go do something. There’s a lot to do.” And I want you to explain this from your angle then. But that’s my interpretation of it. There’s a lot to do. I’d rather have you try something and learn from it. Maybe it succeeds. Maybe it doesn’t. But at least you tried and we learned and we know whereas it’s equally easy… It’s easier to be passive in that situation and just say, “Well, I can’t do this,” or “We’re not going to do this,” or, “If I do that, all these other people have to be involved and that’s going to slow us down.” Just go make errors of action. If they get pissed off, they get pissed off. Go try it, right?

Mike: Yeah. And I think that the full quote is, “Errors of action are better than errors of inaction.”

Shawn: Okay, well, I’ve synthesized that a little bit.

Mike: And it’s great. It’s great. It’s yours now. You can run with it. We’ve actually made… Action is one of our cultural elements. So we have acronym threads. These are the threads that bind us. The A in threads is action. And the backup for that is errors of action are better than errors of inaction. And it’s really nice when you onboard an employee to instill that sort of concept. And that there’s an element of trust in that.

And someone is going to be quicker to trust you if you trust them first or if you share an error with them that you made, and say, “Hey, I’m fallible. I make errors just like everyone else. It’s okay for you to make errors.” It starts the flywheel of, “Okay, this is a trusting organization. They trust me to make decisions. And they won’t all be right and the promise is that we’re not going to go head-hunt people looking for whose fault was that?” Now, I mean, if there’s a chronic fire starter in your organization who’s making errors all the time, clearly, that’s a different situation. But it really kickstarts that trust element. It’s so important to establishing healthy cultures.

Shawn: Give me a little bit more information. Now, you’ve been CEO of a couple of companies now. A little-known fact, you were the coach of an Olympic sailing team in a previous life.

Mike: I was. A previous life, yeah.

Shawn: Where did this philosophy come into play? How did you learn and experience this?

Mike: Daniel Minsky is my business partner at two of the three companies that I’ve had a chance to run. He and I sort of tried to codify culture at the first company, a company in Michigan called Lead Co. And it was the company that I ran before ShapeUp. So we had this sort of element that we wanted people to make errors of action. And it came from sort of agile product development. And the agile is trying to not do the opposite of waterfall. They’re trying not to do things for six months and pushing something out.

They want to push something out in high frequency and get response and feedback. So looking at your anecdote of fires are going on all over the place, I would add, you had to start marketing at ShapeUp almost from a dead stop. So fires are going off and you’re in a dead stop. It was just, “Make some bets, you know, and go for it.” Interesting, Jim Collins, I heard him speak recently. And, you know, for those of you who the name is not clicking, you know, wrote “Good to Great,” “Built to Last,” a few other books, he talks about ranging.

So don’t blow all your gunpowder on one big thing. He said, “Shoot little bullets in a range, find the target, and save enough gunpowder so that once you find the target, you can really unleash,” where a lot of people, they raise money, and they just whamo. They light all of the firecrackers at once, and they don’t have anything else. So it’s an interesting element that if you’re going to have an agile approach, agile is well-established in software development, product development. But it creeps into strategy. It creeps into every aspect of our business. And the ideas, errors of action, is a piece of that. Go for it. Make a test. Try it.

Bill: Well, I feel obliged to jump in and say like, I think people listening may misunderstand or I don’t want them to misunderstand. We’re not proposing people go out to try to make errors. It’s like, err on the side of action, even if you’re going to have an error versus inaction.

Mike: Which I why I’ll stick with my version…

Bill: Your version. Your version. Right.

Mike: Yeah. Errors of an action are better than errors of inaction.

Bill: Exactly, which is a big difference.

Mike: A huge difference. [crosstalk 00:09:58]

Shawn: Listen, it’s more concise. I’m marketing. The full story doesn’t need to get through.

Mike: And you’ve got a TM on it.

Shawn: Yeah. Well, you need to take away [crosstalk 00:10:05].

Kaite: He’s about to.

Shawn: So let me ask you that though because does this cater to certain cultures more so than others? Because I think it’s easy in a startup to say, “Go screw stuff up and see what happens,” being, you know, slightly aggressive in that term. But like, “Go try stuff out, and see what happens.” Say you’re a 20,000-person company. What happens if you start to make errors of action there? Is this a cultural thing? Does it need to be cemented in their cultural values or is this something that people can do?

Mike: You know, it’s certainly your size of company and even the legacy. So the Predictive Index right now is 65 years old. We have, you know, legacy-certified partners who’ve been in this business for 30-plus years. And they have a business that they have been running the same way for pretty much 30 years. And Daniel and I come in and start changing everything.

So the change management bit, a cultural element, like errors of action move fast. You know, really push learning and pushing issues and having that agile development has a hugely taxing side of it, that you have to balance that. You know, if I were a vice president at Fidelity and someone whispered to my ear, “Errors of action over errors of inaction,” in that organization, I’d probably be a little bit afraid to try that out because it’s a large organization. They’re dealing with people’s finances, making mistakes. This would be the same for a hospital. Errors of action over errors of …

Shawn: True.

Mike: …inaction wouldn’t really work in a hospital.

Kaite: Yeah, it’s probably not but something you want to try.

Shawn: No, it’s not something you want to try. I tell people, if we were running a hospital, there’d be people in stretchers all over the place and toe tags. And you’d be like, “What happened?” You’re like, “Not sure.”

Mike: Errors of action. [crosstalk 00:11:58].

Kaite: Try something that definitely works.

Mike: Like a slight but serious to us would be, you know, people who have some sort of terminal cancer or whatever, they want action. You know, it’s like, “Try something…

Shawn: True.

Mike: …because doing nothing isn’t going to help me.” So like it does…

Shawn: It’s a vision in the hospital. There should be errors of action.

Mike: You’re right.

Shawn: I love it. I love it.

Kaite: And I also feel like this can apply to like, if you are in these, you know, legacy companies that have been in these industries forever and are probably less willing to adopt change, this mantra, if you will, can still be applied to someone at like the day-to-day level.

Like, we all have, you know, lots going on. And I think it’s easy for people to get paralyzed from, like, “I have eight million things to do. I don’t know where to start.” So let me just kind of like toil around in this thing that doesn’t really matter. Like, if you’re more prone to make errors of action, you’re not going to let that happen to you, right? Like, you’re not going to get tied up in that paralysis.

Shawn: I think you’re right. When you are feeling that way, you can start walking, making progress, or you can just sit there and wallow in being timid about it. Would you add something to that, Mike?

Mike: You know, I was thinking that errors of action over errors of inaction, if applied the way that we did at ShapeUp, the way we do at the Predictive Index, it sounds like the way that you do here, and with your team, that it becomes a cultural element. And your culture and your people strategy need to map to your overall strategy. So that, yes, it wouldn’t be appropriate for a hospital or bank or Fidelity but it would be appropriate for the startup that’s willing to deal with the chaos or even a fast-growth company that is trying to break their mold a bit.

So, you know, really, when they say the C-suite is the chief cultural officers, you know, by default, that culture better be tied to the strategy. If you’re a hospital and you’re measured on really predictability of outcomes and on efficiency and on dealing with large organizations like doctors’ and nurses’ unions and administration and, you know, pharma, these are huge entities that it just has to map.

But I think at a personal level, where culture doesn’t, and it can be your own personal culture of how you manage your time, you can certainly have that huge pile of work and say, you know, “Today, I’m gonna get five things off my desk. I’m willing to make a mistake, you know. Hopefully, it’s not life-threatening, but we’re gonna roll with that.”

Bill: Yeah. Well, it’s like, you know, Jim Collins, ranging thing. You know, it’s like if you’re trying to do not huge things with everything and you make an error like the company can absorb or the organization can absorb that, you know, versus if you’re betting everything on this, you better be right. And in both cases, you better have a CEO like you who’s embraced errors of action and letting people make mistakes, learn from the mistakes and, you know, don’t point fingers and who’s to blame and chop heads every time a mistake happens.

Mike: Yeah. And that gets a good point to the execution of it. If you just trot out errors of action over errors of inaction and don’t have good postmortems, if you don’t have a good support network, if you do have a culture of chopping people’s heads off and it fails, where you have support and then you’re like, “Okay, I know it feels bad. That was three errors in a row. We should talk about that.” But, you know, the idea if they feel…

Bill: It might pull you out of a game but not throw you off the team.

Mike: That’s right. Pull you out of the game. You’re gonna sit on the bench for a while. I do think if your people feel that you have their back in a real genuine way, and that’s set up beforehand because when someone comes just on board, they don’t feel like you have their back yet, you know, even in the honeymoon period. So it is set up by building that equity in those employees first.

Shawn: Yeah. And in fact, if you have that type of culture, that’s going to spiral pretty quickly, right? Anybody that does anything wrong is going to pretty quickly get brought back in line and you’ll just have a bunch of people that respond, not actually do, right? They’ll be at your whim for whatever you want if they hang out. That doesn’t mean that there’s anything new or innovative or different coming out of that. It’s just going to be top-down.

Mike: So, Shawn, one of our large partners, when we were at ShapeUp, and they’ll go unnamed for the example, we’d have huge meetings with VPs and directors and no one in the room had budget for any of the initiatives we were talking about. None of them had decision making authority. And it was a culture of just keeping one’s head down. And it was just like, “Why are you keeping your head down?”

And they’re sort of, “Well, if you make it to VP at this company, you know, that’s the gravy train. You’re sort of set and now it’s about work-life balance.” And you’re like, “If I had run that company, I would literally have fired every other VP.” And then people would have said, “Would you have done due diligence?” I’m like, “No, it wouldn’t have mattered. Just get rid of 50% of them. Now, they have more to do. Give them the budget and authority.” And they’re gonna be like, “We don’t have to keep our head down, right?” No, you don’t.

Bill: I don’t want you to.

Mike: Yeah, I don’t want you to. And it was just sort of a toxic culture of keeping one’s head down. And it really hurt their business.

Shawn: So what let’s switch topics here for a minute because actually, probably, Bill’s famous for doing this but all throughout the future podcast, I’d be fascinated to know personally about when you walked into, similarly, a 65-year-old company and then you’re like, “Okay, we have to make this modern, agile.” Maybe it was, maybe it was but I’m going to guess not.

Kaite: Can I just say a sidebar? I’m shocked that the Predictive Index is 65 years old. I’ve been aware of you guys for a number of years now. And it must be…

Shawn: Forty-five of those years?

Kaite: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, like, I don’t know, about a handful of years and I’ve always perceived Predictive Index. And it must be maybe it’s since you’ve been there, I’m not sure, as like a modern like tech company.

Mike: It’s funny to have a modern tech company that’s 65 years old.

Kaite: Yeah.

Mike: In its first 60 years, so Daniel and I led the investment in the Predictive Index five years ago or four and a half years.

Kaite: That’s when I became aware of you guys.

Mike: And you became aware of it and it’s sort of we had to re-found it. And in its first 60 years, it was family-run. There was this brilliant founder, Arnold Daniels, 1955. He learned about assessments in World War II, believe it or not. Went to Harvard MIT and then, fantastically, his daughter took the company over in the ’70s, which was very unusual for a daughter to take over a company in the ’70s, and he had sons in the business. So he was pretty forward-thinking in some aspects.

But it was really at its core, a family-run business. And in the end, in 2014, when we bought it, they were really just harvesting cash flows, not investing in the business. So there were 35 employees there. And there are only 6 employees left from that 35, four and a half years later. And I’m not proud of that fact from the perspective of wow, we just go and chop people’s heads off if it’s not a fit, but some of them volunteered. They’re like, “This is too fast for me, this new pace.” And they were ideally suited for…

Kaite: It’s not what I signed up for.

Mike: This isn’t what I signed up for. And some of the individuals who are still there are, you know, thriving. Some actually left the company and we seated them as distributors. So we’re trying to get the right fit for them. But it was a massive change of a company.

I mean, Daniel and I, we talked about like we buy used companies with other people’s money and then we build them and fix them. But it’s always a living reno. It’s a living renovation. So there’s a lot of change and pain. And it’s traumatic to take a family-run company and turn it into a tech company in Boston.

Kaite: Yeah, yeah.

Shawn: So, as we famously do, sometimes we talk about next podcasts. We just go right there. So maybe that starts to get at it. But I’m curious. This is a comp, first and foremost, a comp podcast. As the CEO of a company, what’s your philosophy on compensation?

Mike: I can’t claim that this is my philosophy, but this is our company’s philosophy at the Predictive Index. And my business partner Daniel and Jackie Doobie, you know, our head of talent, you know, really promoted this is we want to take comp off the table. We don’t want that to be the issue that leads engagement or leads disengagement. We don’t want that to be the reason that people come or go. It just wants to be off the table.

So we figured, we expect 90th percentile-plus performance. So we thought it was it was fair to at least pay people in the 75th percentile, you know, as a center point. Maybe we’ll get a little higher or a little lower than that. There are obviously special circumstances that that changes, but the idea of you’ll still get a deal. You’re getting 90th percentile performance, but 75th percentile pay. We got tremendous value. And people feel like, “Hey, I’m getting paid above average for my job.”

Now, obviously, headhunters come and try and woo people away. But if you have a great total package, compensation should be at the table. I make enough that your offer is not interesting. But it’s not just comp. It’s also the full package of understanding benefits and what have you and making sure that people feel really well-rewarded. Now, maybe it’s easy for me to say because we have healthy gross margins. And if I was running a manufacturer with really thin gross margins in a competitive space, I don’t think you could have the philosophy of taking comp off the table as easily.

Shawn: How has Jackie communicated? Jackie, who you just cited as your head of talent? How has she communicated the value of compensation to you?

Mike: Well, she mostly takes care of it, which is interesting.

Bill: Good for Jackie.

Mike: Well, she’s truly an enlightened strategic head of talent. And I think if you don’t have an enlightened head of talent that it falls on the C-suite to do more of the work. And, you know, I actually think she will often run the numbers with our CFO using outside data input to the extent that we can get it and making sure that we’re putting together really competitive packages, often, before I’m informed of what’s happening.

Now, with my direct reports, I’m very involved with, you know, their comp. But I’m certainly not micromanaging compensation because it’s being so well addressed elsewhere in the organization. But you will notice that the number one, the number two, and the number three things on the expense side of the income statement, people, people benefits, housing people, everything’s people.

Shawn: Sure. No, it makes sense.

Kaite: I have a question to go off of the last one that Shawn just asked. So when you are either talking to…not you maybe specifically but your managers are talking to either potential new hires or employees, are you communicating like, “Hey, we pay the 75th percentile and this is how we approach compensation?” Do your people know that?

Mike: They do. We’ve actually codified it. So sort of it’s written down, that we’re aiming to pay in that range. And if someone comes to us and says, “Hey, I think I’m being paid at the 50th percentile,” and that’s not our corporate philosophy, you know, we’ll true them up.

Kaite: Awesome. So your people get it?

Mike: The people get it. The people get it. And it has sometimes worked the other way. They’re like, “You know, someone’s looking for 99th percentile.” And we’re like, “That’s not the philosophy.” I mean, if someone’s looking for 99th percentile, they better play like, you know, Michael Jordan.

Kaite: Yeah, yeah. And then, so do you guys also communicate whether in job descriptions or whatever that you expect the 90th percentile performance?

Mike: We do. We do. And we talk about even the value creation of that arbitrage. And I think if you look at our total comp package and the rest of the benefits that, hopefully, it probably creeps up even from 75th percentile. It’s hard to exactly tell. I mean, you guys would have much better data on that than I.

Bill: You spoke of Jackie as an enlightened human resources talent person. What does that mean?

Mike: Shh. Don’t tell her.

Bill: Shout out to Jackie who’s probably gonna listen to this podcast. You need to come to our webinar and we need to reconnect on that too. But what does enlightened mean to you?

Mike: Well, she’s been in HR, broadly speaking, her whole career. We refer to it as talent because we think it goes beyond just human resources. That the discipline of human resources principally is more tactical in process. I think the enlightenment is around the strategic levers that you have the opportunity to pull when you think about talent strategically.

And by that, how do you change a company, say, from family-run to, you know, a fast-growth company? Through its people, through its compensation, and through the cultural elements like errors of action. And knowing that she’s spending most of her time thinking about the strategic pieces and building a team around her, that supports the… I mean, human resources, the tactical and the process elements are so important.

You know, we just had our readout an hour ago of our engagement survey. There’s a lot of work that goes into getting to that readout. That is a lot of process and a lot of the tactical. But the results can be very strategic and need to be interpreted by one of those enlightened. And we evangelize. You know, we want everyone in our company to be enlightened about talent. You know, even a manager with two direct reports, they should be an enlightened talent person.

Bill: At the risk of asking the same question in a different way because I think people listening would get value out of, you as the CEO, like what are the handful of traits in somebody like Jackie, that give her a seat at the table, that make you want her at the table? I’m asking because people listening, that’s one of their big challenges. How do I get the CEO to trust me, to listen to me, to want me to be there to help? And it sounds like…

Mike: Well, firstly, Jackie is good at managing up. So, you know, she’s sort of trained me. I hired Jackie in 2010, also at ShapeUp, where Shawn and I had the opportunity to work together. And I introduced her to some aspects of our approach on talent. And likewise, she shared some of her best practices, and we’ve been developing some of those elements. But to answer your question that if you’re sitting there as a CEO, wondering, “I really need to get me one of those enlightened…”

Bill: Or you’re sitting there as a Comp or HR person. It’s like, “I need to be one of those.”

Kaite: How do I do that?

Mike: “I need to be one of those.” The idea is you need to make sure that the conversations that you’re having with the C-suite are focused on the, “What is this going to do for the company?” And you have to pull that strategic. And there’s an element of speed. You’re like, “I got the engagement results.” What you should do is sit down and interpret the engagement results.

And, “I’ve poured over the engagement results. And here’s what I think it means and here’s what I think we should do about it.” Just that, and it’s going to take five hours of work, maybe more. It may even require conversations with many of your peers to really tease out those nuances. But how much better is it when someone comes running to your office with not only the data but the interpretation and the action plan?

Bill: Right. Those are two big steps.

Mike: Huge.

Bill: But, you know, every manager knows that like that, you know, you can tell me you did it and hand it to me. That’s okay. That’s data. But interpreting it and then, what do we do about it are great things to do. And it makes your boss appreciate you and the value add and you become more strategic for doing that.

Mike: Because it’s a competitive market from a labor perspective and there might be more sort of churn naturally in the marketplace, make sure that you’re interviewing the senior team about, are they open-minded to strategic talent discussions. But if you’re at a company and you’re happy, and you don’t think it’s there, you have to soften up your C-suite by just keep pounding on them on the importance of this. And it’s a lot of work because you have to change minds. I think, as I said at the beginning, most C-suites don’t have a talent plan, a strategic talent plan.

Bill: I think that’s true.

Mike: They have boxes in Excel that says, “We’re going to hire 11 people in January.” And you’re like, “Whoa. People don’t come in little boxes in Excel. Like, what kind of people? Why?” And that’s where your schematic person listening out there who wants to be strategic is by differentiating themselves and turning that box into something more.

Bill: That’s great.

Shawn: No, that’s a great way to wrap it too. I’ll ask you one more question because we have a group here that likes to learn. Give us a book recommendation or books.

Mike: Well, I quoted Jim Collins earlier. If you haven’t read most of Jim Collins’ books, I mean, he is the Steinbeck or Hemingway of business books. And you gotta read that. You got to take that off the table. From a personal development perspective, I really like, “The Question before the Question,” which really helps you think through, “What can I do when a situation is not going right?”

Shawn: “The Question before the Question” John Miller?

Mike: “The Question before the Question.” I believe it’s John Miller. And sorry, John, for not knowing that for sure. But it is “The Question before the Question,” or QBQ. He often calls it QBQ. But the book that’s influenced me the most lately is a book called, “Play Bigger,” by Kevin Mannie, Al Ramadan, and two other authors that I’m not remembering. But it really talks about categories of strategy and really thinking much bigger about how your organization fits into the world.

Shawn: All right. Well, thanks. We’re trying to share those every time now. So if everybody listening out there has books that you’d recommend that you think the rest of the Comp community should read, write us

Kaite: We’ve got a running list that we can share again, as well, of all the books that have been recommended on this podcast.

Shawn: Sure, in the notes.

Kaite: Yeah.

Shawn: Also, as we started out this episode with, we love to hear from everybody and thank you for your contributions to the community. A shout out to Colleen who wrote in this week and said she’s a big fan of the podcast. “Keep up the good work.” No notes about being a funnier, Bill. So I think it’s working. I think it’s working. I think those imprompt classes are really treating you well.

Bill: I was in The Hamptons with Jerry Seinfeld this weekend.

Shawn: Were you?

Mike: Well done.

Shawn: You’ll have to give me your secrets. I’m getting into that.

Mike: Were you giving him feedback in the B-movie? I wasn’t quite there.

Shawn: The B-movie is fantastic. Are you kidding me? That’s one of the most watchable kid’s movies.

Bill: Maybe you should add that to the podcast. What’s your favorite movie?

Kaite: Kid’s movie specifically.

Shawn: Any kid’s movie that is somewhat watchable is gold in my book because that way I can actually…

Mike: Shark Tale.

Shawn: I haven’t gotten into that one yet.

Kaite: Pokemon. Didn’t you see Pokemon one?

Shawn: Pokemon detective, he’s…

Kaite: Oh, he’s a detective.

Shawn: He’s currently obsessed with. Anyway…

Bill: Way off-track.

Shawn: Way off-track with that one. So thanks, Colleen for writing in. We love hearing from everybody. Colleen in Falls Church, Virginia. So we’re specific about it. And thanks, everybody for listening today. We’ll be back with more soon. Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Great. Thanks for having me.

Bill: Thanks, Mike.

Kaite: Thank you.