Tech is constantly shaping the world we live in.
The way we travel, the way we communicate, the way we order food.
And, of course, it impacts more than our takeout tendencies.
The place where many of us spend our days, the workplace, is heavily influenced by the state of technology.
On this episode of Comp + Coffee, we’re getting into how tech has changed the workplace — for better and for worse.
If you like what you hear make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to us! (And don’t forget to give us a 5-star rating while you’re at it!)
See below for a full transcription of the episode.
Shawn: And we’re live. Happy turkey week, Bill.
Bill: Hello, Shawn.
Shawn: Gobble, gobble.
Kaite: He’s not gonna wish you a happy turkey week, apparently.
Shawn: Hey, Kaite.
Kaite: Hey, Shawn. I’ll wish you a happy turkey week.
Bill: Next week is turkey week.
Shawn: Well, when this releases, it will be next week.
Bill: Oh, this week is turkey week. I gotcha.
Shawn: Don’t screw with the production, Bill.
Bill: Happy turkey week.
Shawn: Hey, there’s a wizard behind the curtain there, kids.
Kaite: Named Tessa.
Shawn: Don’t worry about it. It’s just a wizard the whole time. Bill ruining the magic. All right. So we figured with this week being Thanksgiving here in the U.S., sorry to our Canadian friends, and especially our…
Kaite: And Australia.
Shawn: Well, Canada has its own Thanksgiving.
Kaite: Oh, true, true.
Shawn: It was just like a month ago.
Shawn: Australia, I don’t think, has any concept, unless they wanna email it and tell us about it.
Kaite: Please do. I’m fascinated.
Shawn: Anyway, we figured we’d keep this light this week. Talk about…one of the things we talk about here a lot is technology changing compensation, but we wanted to broaden it out a little bit and talk about how tech has changed the workplace. Because I think one…it’s one of these things that’s almost insidious. It kind of creeps in and, more quickly than you realize, all of a sudden you’re having to be present and responsive on at least 10 different forms of communication. Which isn’t great. So let’s talk about that today. We wanna talk about the rise of this, how things have changed and the pros and cons of it. So let’s start out. Here’s my story. Ready, Bill?
Bill: I’m ready.
Shawn: I’m not a big fan of the instant messengers, not a big fan of Slack, or HipChat, or Microsoft Communicator or Skype or…
Kaite: Gchat? What about Gchat?
Shawn: Gchat. Could go on and on. There’s probably about 10 of them. Not a big fan.
Kaite: Facebook Messenger?
Shawn: Definitely not even on it. But I feel that it’s, in my day, it’s interruptive and my job’s a little different than others. But when I have to do thoughtful/deep work that I have to focus on, it’s the worst thing ever. It gives you a reason to not do it, and people expect an immediate response because of that form of communication. I believe that those things are around because email wasn’t real-time enough.
Bill: Correct, I think. But it’s also, I think, that we see… You were saying it’s real-time. It, you know, creates urgency. But it takes someone else’s urgency and makes it yours.
Shawn: Correct. It can pile onto your day.
Bill: And so it allows people to mess with your priority list. To interrupt your flow, you know, and it seems…
Shawn: I need to get in a good state.
Bill: It seems like the more senior people and the more, you know, the people with more, like, big meaty projects that they need to do, the less they like those things. Because they interrupt you, they get in the way and it’s sort of…
Kaite: Because what you’re doing isn’t transactional and not, it’s not that…
Shawn: Too far.
Kaite: Yeah. Not to imply that other roles don’t have to put thought in their work, but you can, you’re able to move on quickly from one thing to the other, or at least more quickly than stuff you’re working on.
Shawn: Sales is paid to be transactional and paid to be quickly responsive, for all intents and purposes, right? So like, it’s a benefit to them. It’s probably not as much to an engineering team. Right? Who you want to go focus on building something with as few errors as possible.
Bill: But a good use, like in our products, where we allow clients to chat in with quick questions, we respond quickly, you know, because we want them to…
Kaite: Be able to move on in their day.
Bill: …get their answer right away because they’re obviously in the middle of something, you know? And their, you know, their urgency is our service person’s responsibility.
Shawn: Yeah. I think that’s one of the interesting parts. While everything has become more real-time due to technology, and I’m picking on messaging services, but like a lot has become more real-time due to technology. That is one of the areas now that, as consumers, we have that expectation, right? Amazon fulfills something within a day, a lot of times, which, and they’re trying to shrink that down to an hour or two, right? It’s the same thing when you’re in the middle, to your point, of a project or you’re in the middle of trying to buy something. You want that quick answer. You’re in the mindset, then, you don’t want to fill out a form, come back later, file a ticket, whatever it is, and have to get back in that mindset when the provider’s ready.
Bill: But similarly, you know, retail sites like Amazon and others will never put an ad in front of you while you’re in the buying process.
Bill: Like, as you’re starting to enter your credit card, they’re not going to interrupt you and go, “Oh, have you thought about this?” Because it’s like, don’t mess with the sale, don’t mess with the transaction.
Shawn: So, there’s the real-time communication aspect. But let me ask you this, Bill. Has technology, if you ignore the real-time aspect, has it made us more productive?
Kaite: Oh, we were just talking before the podcast started, I was picking Bill’s brain about this.
Bill: I think it’s both made us more productive and more distracted, is my opinion. You can definitely do a lot more now than you could, we’ll say 30 years ago, pre-internet. And, you know, Kaite just mentioned this. One example was, you know, before there was a way to move files easily from one person, or one location to another, you were primarily working with people in your physical location. If I’m working on something and I need it reviewed by Kaite, Kaite has to be in the same office as me, or else I am mailing it to her or…
Shawn: Sending a courier or something like that.
Bill: Or, you know, sometimes faxing. But faxing may work for, you know, documents. But if, you know, like, many people in our world live in things like Excel or, you know, other software where you are actually making changes to what’s going on.
Shawn: If you were doing your most creative advertising pitch and wanted to show it to her, for example.
Bill: Right. There you go, and then you’d send her some pictures. Which I remember doing things like this and, you know, the graphics, the designer people would send, like, slide decks. And they would print them out, and then the manager, or the partner, whoever it is, is now manually editing, saying, “Can you move this?” or “Change this color.” But often it wasn’t in color because color printers were very expensive.
Kaite: This sounds like hell on earth, I’m just gonna say.
Bill: And, you know, for anybody that’s, you know, over, I’ll say over 50 listening, it’s like, you know, the PowerPoint slides that you put together now and that you’re typing on the way into the conference room to present it…
Kaite: It would take them forever and ever to do, right?
Bill: You know, when I started my career, those had to be done at least three days in advance so that the graphics people could send them out to have slides made. And they’re called “slides” for a reason, because they used to come on the little, you know, Kodak slides in a carousel on a slide projector. Exactly. So, it actually, you know, the… We have more control now because you could do it yourself, but we also have less efficiency because you don’t have to get it done any sooner than the moment before you present it.
Kaite: Five… Yeah, like, the instant it’s up there.
Bill: Yes. And sometimes people change them when they’re in a meeting or a conference room.
Shawn: So let’s bring this back to compensation then for a minute, which is, I think one of the cases you hear a lot is that people will cite what you say, right? We are more productive and actually the results show that, right? We’re more productive as a population now, but wages haven’t risen in that same amount, right? So, one of the things I found interesting, and we can link to this article is that, well, it’s basically a false argument, right? Wages might not have risen, but when you look at total cash comp, which is something that we know, like people are, we’ve had… I can’t tell you how many podcasts we’ve covered on this topic, where people are using more bonus or incentives or, you know, you have to look at total cash, and that tends to stay more in line.
Bill: More in line with what?
Shawn: Productivity gains. If you look at just wages, it doesn’t at all, and we know that, right? Every presidential candidate will tell you that.
Shawn: But if you look at total cash comp, it’s much more in line.
Bill: That makes sense to me. And, and it’s… But it’s also, like, the efficiency gains, and this is, you know, I’m pretty sure this is not a political podcast, but, you know, it’s… Just because gains or profits are made from efficiency doesn’t mean people are going to get paid more for it. You know? It’s like, the value of a job is based on, you know, that job relative to other jobs and to what other companies are paying.
Shawn: Supply and demand.
Bill: Supply and demand. And, you know, the profits go to, you know, get spread among the employees, the shareholders, the economy in general, the government.
Shawn: Yeah. Right. So that could be one of the reasons why, but it’s also, as industries change, one of the reasons why you might not see wages, and this is me speculating, is those are the jobs that, you know, when we just talked about couriers, there’s not much need for them anymore, right? So there still might be some, but the wages, there’s just not the demand to increase wages in that type of a group. Other things have come that have increased wages in jobs with similar skills but different, right? Uber, right? Maybe a bad example, but…
Bill: Right. I mean, there’s a…
Kaite: Amazon Prime delivery.
Bill: I saw an interesting story about the, you know, the phenomenon of Uber and I hesitate to get into it.
Shawn: Let’s do it.
Bill: But it’s sort of the, it’s probably better to talk about it in London, say, you know, where cab drivers have to take, you know, they have to, they’re basically apprentices, cab drivers. They have to learn the map. They have to know everything about the city and take tests in order to become a cab driver. And so that is a, you know, perceived to be a…don’t write in about this, a moderately skilled job.
Shawn: You have to know how to avoid traffic and get somewhere as fast as possible and if somebody gives you an address, how to get there.
Bill: Right, right. You have to know all the routes, all the streets. Right. You know, and so when you compare that level of job to Uber, where you just have to have your own car and a phone and you, you know, it’s a lower skill and a lower, you know, lower barrier to entry to the job. And then the other end is the technology side, and the sales and marketing side of Uber is way more advanced than your average taxi company. You know, a company that buys medallions and just owns a bunch of cars. You know, and that’s a very local thing, and, you know, it’s sort of a basic transportation business. And so, what, and again, I can’t even remember who was writing about this, but what they were saying is the split is the money from car rides is going more and more to, in Uber or a rideshare model, to the company. Which has, you know, very low assets, and, you know, low cost.
Shawn: Yup. Just software, by and large.
Bill: Right. But it is a, you know, a technology and a, sort of a high-skilled group, small group of high-skilled people. You know, and less money goes to the drivers, so you’re actually, sort of, dividing so that the average pay for a driver is staying flat or going down.
Shawn: Which is what the wages [inaudible 00:12:19].
Bill: And the average pay for management of driving companies goes up.
Shawn: Well, okay, ignore that specific instance, but isn’t that the big divide right now, that management at a lot of different companies is rising unrelated to or uncorrelated with regular wages otherwise.
Bill: Right, while companies are getting bigger and the job is getting more, you know, there are still 500, give or take, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.
Shawn: Supply and demand.
Bill: Yeah, exactly. So… But they are much bigger now than they were 20 years ago, 30 years ago, whatever.
Shawn: True. But use your example with Uber, right? One of the interesting things that could be… I don’t know, let’s play out the technology future with that. Uber’s never made a dime. They don’t look like they’re gonna make a dime anytime soon either. So, are all these technological advancements really changing anything?
Bill: Well, and I think that’s above the pay grade of this podcast, but…
Shawn: Bring an economist on.
Bill: But I do… Right. I do think it’s, you know, it is this, you know, it has made some things more efficient.
Shawn: It’s more convenient.
Bill: It’s more convenient. It, you know, it is much more logical. You know, you can start a business, you know, as you know, Jeff said in, you know, his CompCon speech a year ago, that you can’t, you know, you don’t buy cars, if you were going to start a ride service in New York City, you wouldn’t start by buying 10,000 cars and painting them yellow. That made sense, you know, back in the ’20s or ’30s or whatever.
Shawn: The best they could do. Yeah.
Bill: But now, you know, everyone has cars and you take advantage of that.
Shawn: Everyone has smartphones, they all have GPS chips in them.
Bill: You know, I think the Uber story is, you know, they’re paying to expand, and, you know, when it levels off, will the business, the ridesharing business still exist? Yeah, it probably will. Will it be, sort of, a hot new technology industry? Probably not.
Shawn: As long as they have competition, it’s gonna be tough. Like, as long as Lyft’s there, who…
Bill: Right, right. That will keep the price in check.
Shawn: Right. They would also like to ask you to go on the road show with them, though, and make that pitch.
Bill: All right, I’ll go back to my office and wait for that call.
Kaite: Fireside chats only.
Bill: Oh, perfect.
Shawn: Wow. Wow.
Kaite: I just know Bill’s flavor.
Bill: Yeah. Fireside chat.
Kaite: Well, you know, like conversational.
Bill: Conversational is good.
Shawn: So, I think while we’re talking about this, to kind of put a point on it, one of the things that we can maybe give tips on is basically personal productivity. How do you put the walls up? How do you put the boundaries up to say, like, for example, do I need to be, in my role… You brought up a good example, Bill. Do I need to be, in my role, accessible, readily 8 hours a day, 12 hours a day, 24 hours a day? And if that is what it is, then it is what it is, and I know I’m probably not gonna be able to do deep thought work, right? That’s just my role. Alternatively, if I’m doing deep thought work, do I need to be available readily? Right? Is that one of those things that I should be trying to do just because company…
Shawn: Yeah. The company, the way the company operates is there? Or is it okay not to do that? Like, how do I put up personal boundaries and what are some areas to look at for that?
Kaite: I think a lot of it is your, like, what…goes back to what you just said, like personally, you have to, like, build the habits around it. So if you’re finding that you are constantly responding to Slack messages the instant you receive them, then you have to create your own rules for yourself. And I’m sure at some companies that doing that is not fine. But like, here I would say, like, that’s fine. You just have to communicate that. So like you, for example, Shawn, you’re not immediately available on Slack. Like sometimes, if someone Slacks you and catches you when you happen to be on Slack and available to chat, then you’ll reply. But, I think the important thing is that you’ve communicated that, like, to your team. We know that you’re not usually on Slack. So therefore, if we need an immediate response from you from something, like, pick up the phone and call. And if someone’s not willing to pick up the phone and call you, then it’s probably not a big priority, right?
Shawn: Text me, stop in my office, whatever, that’s all fine.
Kaite: Yeah, that too.
Shawn: But yeah, I think I value asynchronous communication unless there’s a need otherwise, right? If something’s on fire and we need to figure it out, let me know something’s on fire and we need to figure out. If it’s just, “Hey, what about this thing?” Then it’s asynchronous and…
Kaite: Or like, “Hey, here’s a random thought that popped in my head about something. Yeah, like that. And how incredibly frustrating if you were in the middle of a project and you’re also trying to respond to me.
Shawn: Now, Bill on the other hand, if you don’t respond to his Slacks…
Kaite: Well, off with your head.
Shawn: He comes to your office and just beats on the door as loud as he possibly can. And it’s really obnoxious and I wanted to have an intervention about it tonight.
Kaite: So, Bill, the reason we’re meeting here…
Bill: I’m pretty sure most people out there know that I’m not on Slack. But I think about how, like, not to get too corny, but like, look at your job description, your real job description. What are you supposed to do? And understand the importance of things like real-time responsiveness and, you know, and sort of, getting back to people, because, you know, compensation people in general are weirdly in a, like, heavy doing role but also in a customer service role. And you got to keep in mind, like, even if you’re getting a call from one employee or one manager asking you a question, that’s likely to be one of the most important things to the person asking the question.
Shawn: Hundred percent.
Bill: And even though you’ve got a lot of stuff to do, you’ve got this “take care of your customer” issue, and that it may be more important to stop what you’re doing and respond to the Slack, respond to the email. You know, even if it’s, you know, this is a personal preference. Even if it’s just to say, “Got your message, I will get back to you later this afternoon,” or whatever. But like, make sure that the person feels like they’re being heard and that their, you know, that their issue is being addressed, because it means something to them. It means a lot to them.
Shawn: Yeah, for sure. That’s what we all care about most. We say that all the time, right? Every employee cares most about their comp. I mean, we… Most people don’t work for free. I think what you’re hinting at, though, there is something that’s interesting, which is that if you can, I think it’s best to structure your day around knowing what you know about yourself. So I know I do my best deep work, if you will, like, most thoughtful work early in the morning, typically. When I come in, if I can be focused for a couple hours and knock something out, it’s going to be way better than if I’m struggling by the end of the day to try to make that happen. So if you need to do that deep work, if you need to be in Excel for a while and really focus on something, know yourself. Know when you’re gonna be most productive. It’s gonna be different for everybody, but try to set aside that time and either, to your point, communicate, like, if it’s an instant message application, you can set a status on there. Or if it’s on your email, you could have like a, quote, unquote, “out of office” on there. Or to your point, you just, kind of, monitor it and if anything on fire does come in, respond that way, if you can, if it doesn’t need to be handled right away and get back to what you’re doing. That way you’re not… I think one of the things that we, in the modern age with technology, do is, like, jump around. What’s happening with my phone? Your phone is literally this device that’s incentivized to get you to interact with it more, the apps on there, the device itself, right? So you’re gonna get notifications, you’re gonna have to see what those are. It’s a dopamine shot when you get those. You’re like, “Oh, somebody’s texting me. What’s going on? Oh, there’s a new Instagram post,” right? So it’s easy to jump around and do all these different things where…but it’s…it makes that productive work much, much harder. So know when you’re most productive and try to block out those hours.
Kaite: Or also, I think there’s a lot of value, and I’m not sure, again, if this works at other organizations, but I know it works on our team really well, of like, having days where you, again, communicate to everybody, but that you’re, quote, unquote, “off the grid,” to do, like, heads-down work. We do it often enough with our team.
Shawn: I think one of the things we’re talking about there, though, is you can actually develop that ability. I remember years ago, took a test and it would gauge the amount that you’re, the rough amount that you’re able to focus on something, and certain people are able to do it longer, some not. But you can, like an athlete, train that part of your…you can train that ability. You can be more focused. You just have to train yourself to shut out those distractions and really take passion in that deep work, right? Being able to go into deep work and really do it for a few hours or half a day, or… I mean, writers have to do that typically, right? If you’re writing a novel, it’s not going to work too well if you’re like, “I’m going to write a paragraph and then I’m going to go away for a little bit, and then I’m gonna come back and write another paragraph.” It’s gonna be the most choppy narrative you’ve ever read, right? So, but you can develop that. That is something… And you can do it, unlike writers, without alcohol. Which is helpful, but you can do it without that.
Bill: I dare people to, you know, think about in that kind of a exercise, writing a book or, you know, some deep project is going to your computer and shutting off the internet. You know, because I think…
Shawn: Yeah. Well, there’s apps that’ll do it for you, that literally shut down all social media and everything else for you and it focuses you on just one thing.
Bill: Right. I saw a study recently that was about how much time people spend checking their email. And it, you know, if you ask people, they say, you know, they think it’s like 10, 15 minutes a day, and it’s more like 2 or 3 hours a day.
Kaite: Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like constantly, like, even just out of habit half the time of like, I don’t know, like…
Shawn: It’s a dopamine shot.
Bill: [inaudible 00:22:19].
Kaite: I’m sitting there, I’m sitting there eating lunch and I, like, refresh my email and, you know, and it depends on, like, it depends on what that day looks like, you know, or what you’re waiting for. But it’s, 10 to 15 minutes seems absurdly low if you have it on your phone.
Bill: And I think, you know, in our world, you know, and I wonder how many other people listening have multiple monitors. Depending on what office I’m in, I have two or three monitors and it’s like email on one, internet on another, you know.
Kaite: Oh, interesting.
Bill: You know, Excel, Word, PowerPoint, something on the third. And, you know, you’re just bouncing around and huge efficiency gains in being able to, if you need to research something, you just click from one screen to the other and go to Google or whatever your favorite search engine is, and look things up and find things that, you know, would take days, weeks, or months in the past to find. But it’s also, you know, distraction is just a click away. And we’ve all been well trained by our phones and our computers to, you know, to be very distracted and to jump to the next thing and remember, you know, “Oh, I forgot to make a plane reservation. Let me go, you know, book, you know, book a flight. Let me…” you know, and…
Shawn: It’s happened multiple times to me where I’ve been distracted while doing that kind of stuff, and I booked it on the wrong day.
Bill: Oh, yeah.
Bill: Or the AM versus PM or vice versa.
Shawn: Yup. It’s not good.
Bill: Yeah. I’ve gotten distracted from my distractions, which, you know, forget where I started.
Kaite: That is a real rabbit hole. Well, you were just saying it’s a lot about just training yourself to be more focused and building those habits. I don’t know. I don’t know if this is something either of you ever feel. I feel like probably not, and maybe it’s, I don’t know if it’s like a product of… Excuse me. I don’t know if I’m a product of my generation in saying this or if it’s a me thing, but I need… If I go off the grid, it’s almost like me… I feel like I need like the permission to do so, and the permission to be like I’m putting it out there and telling you I am not going to be immediately available today. I’m putting it out there and telling you that I need, like, to just focus on this one specific thing today. Because otherwise, I feel this internal, especially, I’m remote three days a week. I feel this internal pressure to, that I’ve created myself, but that I respond to things immediately, especially if I’m not in the office. Like I feel like I need to be… You know, if someone Slacks me, reply right away to it.
Shawn: Yeah. So you’re raising a good point, which is that technology is facilitating more remote working, but at the same time when there used to be, like bad management would be, you know, pardon the phrase, but ass time, right? How often are people in their seats? And that’s how you know if they’re being productive or not. Whereas like, when you go remote, you can’t really do that as much. And that’s how bad managers continue that management. It’s like, “Okay, you’re going to be remote, fine, but I want to see you on…”
Kaite: “I wanna make sure that you’re on there as…”
Shawn: “If I Slack you, if I email you, if I…you need to respond to me right away.” So it’s probably less permission, and more, I would think, just so…that would be bad management. In your instance, I think also, you’re probably more letting people know, you’re communicating out that that’s going to happen and less seeking permission.
Kaite: Yeah, that’s fair. But I do, I mean, I, I’ve worked…
Shawn: So they’re not looking for that quick response.
Kaite: I’ve worked from home for several years now, and I feel like I’ve gotten it down more than before. But early on, and I still sometimes do this, like, feel the…like, it’s hard to…if you’re working from home, it’s hard to walk away from your work. You can be like, “Oh, well, I can do this one thing while I’m, like, making dinner because, you know, like whatever, because this is quick and easy,” or whatever it is. And I also feel like I need to be, like, sitting in front of my computer all day. Whereas like, at the office, like, you get up, you walk around, you might talk to somebody, you go grab a cup of coffee. Like, you’re not sitting at your desk straight for eight hours without leaving it. So, and I feel like part of it is just, like, building when you are remote, building, like, good remote habits, as well. And like, being okay with the time that you might spend interacting with colleagues. It’s fine if you take that 20 minutes that you’d spend in the kitchen making coffee here and go walk the dog or something.
Shawn: Well, literally there were companies that built… Apple always comes as an example. Their new headquarters was built to have those random encounters. They want those to happen. They want people to chat and come up with new and interesting takes, of people that wouldn’t normally chat. So yeah, I mean, there’s value in that stuff, in those random encounters at the office. And, you know, the question is, with remote work, how do you replicate that?
Kaite: Yeah. And I would say, like, doing, going out and, doing the, you know… I’m thinking of a few weeks ago when we were preparing for CompCon, I had to write something and I ended up writing this… I had carved out, like, half the day to write this, because normally it would have taken that long. But I got up and took the dog on a walk and basically wrote the entire thing in my head while I was walking the dog, came back and had half of what I was working on written because it just, it’s, I guess, sort of replicating, maybe not random encounters, but like, you’re replicating those, like, bursts of idea.
Shawn: Yeah, right, right. Those creative moments. So I think what we’ve been talking about here is, like, a little bit how tech’s changed the workplace, a little bit how to adapt to it. If this is a topic that’s interesting, I think one of the things we could do is focus more, in another podcast, on how to harness technology and make the best use of your time. So, if that’s something that’s interesting to you, write us, email@example.com. Or you can go to iTunes or wherever your listening avenue of choice is and give us that feedback. Just comment on it and let us know. Also, if you include a smiley picture of Bill, it gets extra credit.
Bill: They don’t exist.
Kaite: Oh, that’s new. I didn’t know that. Yeah.
Shawn: There’s GIFs out there.
Bill: [inaudible 00:28:18].
Kaite: Wait, also, I would actually be interested, I was just talking about remote work and saying that I’m remote. I’d be interested in knowing how many people on the…or, how many listeners, excuse me. I’d be interested in how many listeners are remote or, like me, semi-remote out, you know, in the office maybe a couple of days.
Shawn: Or there’s a lot of times, too, with satellite offices. So it might not be an HQ, but satellite offices there, where they have comp people. So, yeah. Write in, let us know.
Bill: I think an interesting twist would be to…we could talk about the difference between technology working for us, and us working for technology. You know, it’s like, you know, part of the reason that we are rarely on, Shawn and Bill are rarely on Slack, is because we don’t want to work for Slack.
Shawn: We’re not slave to the man.
Bill: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it is a weird sort of protest, but also like, you know, that technology is hurting our productivity, not helping it. But we’re hurting other people’s productivity by not being available.
Shawn: Potentially, yeah. True.
Kaite: See, I don’t feel like it’s like, then that’s [inaudible 00:29:29]… Now we’re getting on a tangent and we’re trying to close the podcast [inaudible 00:29:31]…
Shawn: Sometimes I just need to know what Bill thinks of ABBA, and if I can’t get that right away on Slack…
Bill: I love palindromes.
Shawn: I’ll just use that as my template from now on, now.
Bill: All right.
Shawn: And with Kaite’s cough, we’re going to go ahead and close it out.
Kaite: I’m alive.
Shawn: Bill, Kaite.
Bill: Shawn, Kaite.
Shawn: Thank you. As always…
Kaite: Shawn, Bill.
Shawn: If this is something that’s interesting that you do want to hear a second half of, let us know. We’re nothing but not just responsive plebs to everybody’s whim on Slack. All right.
Bill: And happy Thanksgiving.
Kaite: Happy Thanksgiving to our…
Shawn: And in the U.S., enjoy Thanksgiving. Happy turkey day. Talk soon, everybody.